Talk:千本桜 (Senbonzakura)/@comment-86.245.26.248-20181130200601/@comment-11501835-20181216104849
Hello, Whether this is a discussion about interpretation, or translation, I agree that it's hard to distinguish the two, because obviously one needs to interpret it first before - I believe our disagreement lies on the context of the vocabulary used. It's also to my understanding, that, words are meaningless without context and definition, especially in a song, where a more, intricate and hidden message is bound to be implied, more so than everyday conversations. Words are, indeed, prone to vagaries over time - especially in ironic twists. But I don't think it doesn't mean we have to resort to transliteration every time, if one can find a word that underwent a similar contextual history. Regarding the history of that of "high collared" - I believe it more or less didn't change. The only thing that did, was the tone. Whether ironic or not, it more or less meant the same thing. Now, one could argue that what is the difference between "definition", "context", and "tone"? Well, to be entirely honest, when translating I don't really need to distinguish them, because I end up having to include them all anyway. But, for me, a contextual change would be something more criminal, like the phrase "I'm alright" designating "There is no problem" until recently, while it also designates "I don't need any, thank you" nowadays. Call me old, but I believe there was a time where it didn't mean the latter. I think the problem here that persists, is that I'm using the word "white collared" literally, to signify "high collared" contextually. It's fair that one might think this is inconsistent. Perhaps some quotation marks sandwiching the word would be a better compromise? I would suppose so. That's a discrepancy I didn't really realize. Nevertheless, I would still like to stress that there is some contextual accordance between the two words. While the alluded time might be different - for the West it was factory -> service - for Japan it was artisans/farmers -> administrative/public workers - There is still this implication of "the brainies' progressing" where brain work was favoured over manual work. That's the whole implication of "white" for the West, it doesn't get dirtied because it's in offices. This idea of white purity, while very implicit, is what was felt for the concept itself of a "collar". Collars were fancy Western stuffs that aren't made for dirtied work. Of course, one might not feel all that when reading the "white collared" bit. Therein lies the unsolvable question: Up to what point do we agree on a common definition? The only condition that words have a meaning is if people use it. Therefore, it's odd to think that transliterating "high collared" into English is the solution either - because it's formerly an English word that's adopted into Japanese with completely different implications, that's translated back into English that, must have the aforementioned implications. Few, I believe, is familiar to the "context of high-collared". The signification isn't there and is lost, as well. What could it mean? The military? The bourgeois? The haughty? Maybe even vampires? Whatever questions readers might have, isn't really that of what a Japanese listener would feel with a literal use of "high collared", in my opinion. Hence why I've resorted to a compromise as I've mentioned before - no doubt that a profound listener such as yourself would note the contextual discrepancy between the two words. There is no perfect solution as it would create a drift in-between, using the same literal word wouldn't really solve it. But it is my belief that listeners are smart enough to not take the word "white-collared" at face value, and instead dig for implications behind (Just as a note, the word "white-collared" is practically non-existent in Japan, ironically though those who use obscure English loanwords often are labeled as "wanting to appear smart by using English words". Personally I find this really funny because it's the exact same kind of hate "high collar" has gotten.) I'm starting to deviate here, so I'll wrap it up. As a better compromise, would the phrase "A revolution of whitened collars" separate English speakers from the "white-collared" bit, at least on an instinctive level? I'm a high school student, I don't intend to be in business school, when I use it between my friends all I get is "educated workers". Or would "bleached collars" dilute the "Western white" too much? I can't really think of an alternative that designates haughtiness (of HIGH), West (of WHITE), collar (of WEST), middle-class, and infatuation (however ironic or genuine that may be). But I think these suggestions address your discontent with the too-explicit signification of service jobs, that "white-collared" has on English speakers.